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There are (3) major components to the proper setup of Amal Mk.1 Concentric carbs when used on Vincents. These are: 1) Carb Modifications, 2) Carb Jetting, and 3) Ignition Timing. Each will be covered here in great detail.
Amal Mk.1 Concentric Carb Modifications.
New Amal Concentrics can be purchased today from several sources, and sometimes, they can be bought equipped with the jetting that you will specify. Regardless, these carbs whether new, or old/used need to be "blue-printed" for use on a Vincent. I learned the hard way that they CAN NOT be just mounted, and used. I found data on the proper setup of the float level. I discovered that a restrictor low speed orfice must be drilled out, and I discovered that the brass fuel feed nozzle in the bore needs to be modified (like a Norton 850' 932 carbs). Perform all (3) of these mods!
1) Float Setting: Normally the float
in NOT adjustable. The float's needle seat that is in the float bowl can
be moved slightly up or down to the precise location by first running very
hot tap water over the seat for a few minutes, and then gently tapping
the seat in either direction to move it. Use different sized rods, or drill
bits in a manner that won't hurt the delicate needle's seating surface.
The proper float height is .080" measured from the top of the float to
the top edge of the float bowl. It is important that the stock bowl gasket
be used because of it's specific thickness. To measure for the .080", assemble
the float, float pin, and needle into the bowl, and carefully hold the
float pin fully down as if it was installed to correctly position the float,
hold the float level, and upright as if it was on the bike. I use a .080"
drill bit, and I lay it on the top edge of the bowl near the float (opposite
end of the float from the needle), and I "eyeball" the thickness of the
.080" drill bit, and compare how far down the float edge is from the bowl
edge. The float drop should equal the thickness of the .080" drill bit.
The seat will need to be heated, and moved several times to get this adjustment
just right. If the float level is too low, the carb will always act lean,
and if the level is too high, the carb will always act too rich!
2) Low-Speed (Pilot) Jet Restrictor:
The Low-Speed jet size for a Vincent is very important, and on the later
Concentric carbs, a restrictor jet of about a #15 jet size is installed
that limits the available low-speed jetting size. This size is only applicable
to 500's! On the side of the carb is an angled screw for setting the slide
height, and a horizontally mounted adjusting mixture screw. Remove the
mixture adjusting screw, and spring, and look into the hole it came out
of. You will see a restrictor jet with a very small hole (.015"). This
will need to be drilled out with a .040" tiny drill bit. Great care must
be used while doing this to not wreck the carb, or to break off the end
of the drill bit! Now this restrictor is equivelant to a #40 low-speed
jet (larger than you will ever need). Now, the normal low-speed (pilot)
jets can be screwed into the carb body's pre-drilled orfice above the float
bowl. A #30 Low-speed jet is correct for most Vincent applications. A general
rule for selecting the correct low-speed jet is that the fastest idle speed
found by adjusting the mixture needle while idleing should be found with
the needle out between 1 to 1 1/2 turns out (prefferably 1 1/4 turns out).
3) Brass Fuel Feed Nozzle Modification:
The brass fuel feed nozzle visible inside the throttle bore (the needle
goes into it also) has a round cylindrical design where it stands about
1/4" above the bores lower edge. This is appropriate for small displacement
motors, but for larger applications (like a Norton 850, and Vincents) this
feed nozzle needs to be modified. When you look into the carb's bore you
can see this feed nozzle. The complete back half (downstream) needs to
be cut away. To do this, carefully scribe a mark along the lower rear edge
of the feed nozzle along the body's bore surface. Mark a small dot with
a "Sharpie" pen to orient the exact midpoint of the rear of the feed nozzle.
Disassemble the carb to remove this feed nozzle. Carefully mark the sides
of the feed nozzle with vertical lines for cutting away material. You want
to use a Dremmel tool with a cut-off disc, and be very careful to remove
exactly 1/2 of the feed nozzles exposed material (the rear half!!). Re-assemble
the carb. The need for this is because at low engine speeds with only slight
throttle (slide) opening, the in-rushing air will pick up fuel from the
needle while air is rushing around the feed nozzle, rather than the air
having to rush over the top of the feed nozzle. Untill I discovered this
mod, I was suffering poor low end running, as well as alot of detonation,
and heat build-up.
Jetting Guide For Amal Mk.1 Concentric Carbs For Vincents.
As you know, not any (2) motors, and their operating enviroments are going to be identical. These jetting guidelines should either be correct for your bike, or at least be within one jetting change from correct. Careful observations, and adjustments must be made after an initial impression has been realized. I have discovered some things that may influence other bikes. One is the size , and flow rate of your pet-cocks. These are bigger carbs, and under hard riding, they may need more fuel than your pet-cocks were flowing before. I have had great success from the late Norton style pet-cocks with the "paddle-type" lever. Don't get the cheaper Taiwan units. Spend the extra money, and get the much better British made units! Pet-cocks can definitely affect your main jet size!.
Jetting Specs:
1) Slide: I like the 3.0 slide for
quicker throttle response than the standard Amal 3.5 slide. Use "hard-chromed"
slides if you can find them. The last ones I found were at (Clubman Racing).
The "Pot-Metal" standard style slides just won't last as long, but they
work great.
2) Needle: I use the standard Amal
needle with (3) needle clips. I've found the middle notch to be best for
higher elevation, and in some cases, the lower (richer) notch might be
best. This is a very subjective setting, where you will need to drive test
each setting to find which feels the best. This setting affects the feel
of normal "inner-city" type acceleration (not high, or low speed running).
3) Needle Jet: The standard size
needle jet is a #106. I have had better success with a richer #107 needle
jet. This adds a tiny bit of richness to the mixture at idle, just after
idle, and everywhere along the needles taper. This increase was very beneficial
to my Vincent as well as my Norton 850. I have found that it is easier
for me to remove my bowls, and upsize a needle jet instead of removing
the carbs to change a needle clip position when going from my home at 7,000"
elevation to sea level. Often people are changing low-speed, and sometimes
main jets to cure a mid-range jetting problem, where a change in the needle
jet was the only cure. I've found that bikes that ran fine decades ago
on older style fuel usually need an upsize of at least one size for the
needle jet to react to today's newer fuels. I've found this to also be
true for my Mikunis! What people don't tend to realize is that the relationship
of the needle jet orfice to the needle's shank diameter is actually another
jet size! This relationship affects the jetting from idle to just under
full throttle.
4) Main Jet: I have found for a
basic Rapide, or Shadow motor that a #220 jet for higher elevation, and
a #230 jet for sea level works best. This size may need to be adjusted
if you are running straight through muffler, velocity stacks, hotter cams,
etc.. I use #250 jets in my 1,164 cc "Big Bore" motor with Mk.2 cams, 10:1
compression, and a straight through muffler.
5) Low-Speed (Pilot) Jet: I found
the #30 Low-Speed jet to be correct for a basic Rapide or Shadow motor.
I am using a #35 jet in my "Big Bore" 1,164cc motor.
6) Float Level: The float level
at the top edge of the float measured at the dge away from the needle and
seat should be .080" below the top edge of the float bowl. This has been
covered above! Jim Mosher 11/29/07 (Jim
designed and sells Concentric manifols for Vincents at www.performanceindian.com
....seems like an OK guy. He also posted an excellent complimentary
article in the Vincent Tech Section on Magnetos.)
I'm running 32mm
Concentrics on F10AB/1/399; #3 slides
, Needle clips in center groove, needle jets #106, main jets 230, pilot
jets #30. With 2500 miles on a fresh engine, it starts easy, idle is great,
will go over 100 mph (once, according to chronometric speedo, impulsively,
with suspension and brakes not fully set up) @ 35-37 degrees advanced timing
with a BTH magneto. 50mpg average. Plugs read rich which is a project
currently underway to correct. Jack 9/15/07
Mixture: 1)
mark the throttle at fully closed and at fully open. Then you'll know whether
the trouble is slide (0 - 1/4 open), needle (1/4 to 3/4), or main jet.
Main jet affects both, but sounds as though you have a flat spot.
2) I'm running 190 rear 180 front with no filters. The rear is pretty good,
the front masked by oil but there are no holes in the piston, so I think
they're both good. Unless the K & N filters have no impact on airflow,
you ought to be weaker than that. 3) If you can hold the throttle
at the flat spot and lower the air lever s-l-o-w-l-y, if the problem goes
away before it gets much worse you were too lean, if it gets worse before
it gets much worse you were too rich.. Roy Cross 6/19/07
We did a little experiment. We measured the diameter at the top and bottom of an original slide (virtually unworn), the sleeved slide in question and my stainless machined slide with three thousand miles on it. In the case of the original and the sleeved slide the diameter at the lower point, just above the cutaway, was actually slightly larger than at the top by about 2-3 thou. In the case of the stainless slide it was smaller by 4 thou.
Both the original and sleeved slide were of brass, (in the latter case we don't know what the sleeve material was). Could it be that Amal deliberately built into the design a slight differential in diameter so that the lower slide edges were always under slight tension against the body ensuring a good seal?
Experience has also showed us that when you mechanically
widen the diameter, by carefully prizing the lower edges of a slide apart
a little, the brass will retain this new attitude allowing you to get several
thousand more miles out of it . However a stainless slide will return within
a short while (days) to its original attitude as if it has a "memory",
this in spite of the fact that the stainless slide is at least 10 thou
wider in wall diameter. Tim
Baldric 4/3/03
CV Carburators:
Everybody who experiments has concentrated on high efficiency carbs,
like the TT/GP's, flatslide Keihins or Mikuni's, or round slide Mikuni's--or
even Dellorto's. The bad rap on CV carbs is the flow is less than
optimum because of the butterfly valve in the airstream. The benefit
is that since the slide opening is responsive to vacuum from the intake,
the mixture should always be perfect. It's a "demand" system.
Even with shelves full of high-performance carbs, I've thought seriously
of trying CV carbs on a Vincent engine. Despite appellations
like "the Beast," your post-war engine is in a relatively mild state of
tune, and requires neither the lightning response nor the enhanced
flow characteristics of the best of the competition carburetors.
If your Vin is in a relatively standard state of tune and displacement,
I wouldn't recommend a bit over 34mm bore, even with a CV carb--and maybe
not even that large.
For example, if you have done any cleanup in the ports and have 9-9.5:1
CR and MkII cams, up to 34mm could be OK (given the poor top-end airflow
characteristics). But the lovely thing about the CV delivery is that
you will find a smooth operation no matter the speed range or demand you
place on the carbs. John Caraway 12/14/01
If the fuel taps aren't dripping , then dip each
needle in Brasso and give each seat a rub. Then extend each side stand
3" so that your bike will stand up straighter.To prove if it's the stand's
fault, the carbs.shouldn't drip when the machine is on the rear stand.
To go the extra mile I machined an "O" ring groove
in the needle of the front carb. right where it seats, after installing
the "O"ring I then ground it flush with the tapered needle.
The rear needle, I shortened, and drilled it so
that a Mikuni float needle could be snapped on to the end of it. This then
required boring the old seat out and making and pressing in a seat that
matches the new needle. They still drip! So! One minute before you plan
on stopping, turn off the fuel, this will lower the fuel level enough to
stop the dripping. Thats what I do. Dan Smith 03/09/01
Many of us bought the K&N a month or two ago
and I'm sure someone, other than just me, will have the same problem. The
forum discussed how a "higher flowing" filter would require adjusting the
carb. Take note The K&N may require a needle adjustment, but the adjustment
may make your bike the best it's ever been. I still can't believe they
market this air filter as "high flow" but insist carb changes are not necessary.
Pascal 02/15/01
Float needles
as originally fitted to Amal Monoblocks and Concentrics were solid one
piece nylon needles. In response to reports of dripping and seepage
past the needle, newer up-graded needles( the Viton rubber tipped
version) were later offered as an extra cost option. About the same time
Amal described a modification to both tapered needle and needle jet
holder which quite transformed the running of the Concentric. The long
needle now had 3 circles about its upper end and the jet carrier was longer
in its lower portion. A reminder was made concerning the little
brass hood situated in the base of the choke - that the 4 stroke part was
cut off straight across its top while the 2 stroke version was cut off
across its top at a steep angle. Many complaints of mixed assembly
between body type components resulting in poor tunning have been received
at Amal. The motorcycles ran poorly and were a beast to start !
I found this mix-up on a BSA 441 that was a pig to start. After correcting
the mismatched pieces, starting became far easier, low speed running
far improved, and roll-on power increased. If your motorcycle runs like
a pig have a look inside its carburetor ! S.M. Biberman
First I polished the necked-down portion of a pair of standard adapters. Then I made a pair of flanges that were a few thousands undersize. With the adapters temporarily mounted to the engine, I put some alignment marks on the adapters and the flanges so I could install the flanges in the proper orientation.
Next step...put the adapters in the refrigerator's
freezer compartment and the flanges in the oven at about 350-400 degrees
F. Place the hot flange on a flat surface (such as a smooth block
of wood) and plunge the cold adapter into it. If it won't fit (which
mine didn't on the first two attempts) polish the necked-down
portion of the adapters a little more.
Repeat the heating, freezing, and plunging steps until you can get the adapter to bottom out in the flange.
Mine work perfectly--a complete seal was accomplished. Someone with a milling machine can make the holes for you to the kind of precision required. Just have them drill the two mounting holes and bore the center intake passageway. You could also get them to mill a good flat surface on one side. Afterwards you can cut them out with a hacksaw and file the edges to match the flanges on your MK I's. A few VERY careful strokes with a flat file will assure a good mating surface if the adapter went slightly past the milled surface.
Without going out to the shop to measure the thickness,
I would guess mine are about 1/2" thick--it was just
a scrap of aluminum I had on hand.
"Jay" 9/14/00
I have run original Shadow carbs on the Woolly and when I went up to 9.4:1 I also went to 34 mm flat slide Mikunis. The carbs were new and jetted very rich, like 25 MPG rich. After many tries and 3 seized pistons I got the jetting really close and no more holes. I am now running HD electronic ignition and with no suitable timing device installed have set my timing by ear- like advance till you detonate and the just back a bit. Good enough to run mid 7's at Ramsey and also give a real good thrash around the Island. Many times I hear people with pistons holed who immediately blame the pistons but I feel the holed pistons are the result of the problem and not the cause. I must agree with Sid, for who am I to disagree, that you need to look at mixture, ignition advance, and fuel supply problems long before you blame a piston.
I know of one such piston being blamed and yet running over 40 degrees advance! My experience says if you are getting more that 55-60 MPG on a nice 65 MPH cruise for a full tank then you are probably too lean. Don't assume when something breaks that it is a problem all by itself, life doesn't work that way.
By the way I recall some suggestions about Mk 2 concentrics and jetting some time ago. If any one has them could they send them to me. It seems a Twin recently arrived here is running rather rich and has a brand new set of Spanish Mk 2s.
And a note for Nick Cleary. I'm not promoting
and I know some may disagree but, making reference to the above, Danny
Smith ran Kemp's pistons on his 30,000 miles plus travels to the tip of
South America and then up to the
Yukon and they sre still just fine. Shadow type
29's, Mag ignition, and the addition of chrome top rings. If you
have the confidence that you are going to keep your motor together and
not need to disturb them, put in good chrome rings, and hone the bores
to the clearance recommended by the piston guys to the finish recommended
by the ring guys. With a good seal, no blow by, no oil leaks, no
fancy breather (another of those blame the breather
when your leaky rings are pressurising the cases
causing the leaks) and you should get a sweet running motor.
Robert 4/04/00
The early original cork taps are always suspect at providing sufficient flow for speeds above 60 -70 MPH and never for top speed runs . Larger bore lever taps and opening out larger that cap vent is tops on the list for serious Vincent riders as would be closely setting ones ignition timing . Incorrect jet sizes, sticky floats, and inlet manifold air leakage at the male to female joint ( particularly that last one) are very common on older Vincents. S.M. Biberman
Sid,
That reminds me of a time I was riding
home on my Vin, one afternoon, in fast traffic, on a single lane in each
direction road. I was running on the left side tap and using the right
side tap as reserve. As luck would have it, she started to run dry going
over a fairly long bridge. So I pulled out the right tap for reserve. And
I mean, I pulled it out! It seems that the stop screw had backed out on
me and was no longer doing its job.
So here I was, going up a grade, on a bridge,
with no place to pull over, with my petcock in my throttle hand, as I watched
my reserve fuel poring out on my right boot and exhaust pipe, to the sound
of my carburettors backfiring from lack of fuel. To prove the old
bromide about God looking out for fools, I was able to put the the cork
carrier back in the petcock on just the second try, (I was wearing winter
weight gloves at the time), and still had enough
fuel to make it over the bridge and to pull over
and empty my boot of the excess fuel it was now holding.
So to my fellow Vincent owners, don't try
to top this. Please check those petcocks and think about an upgrade. (
I did, and I also put a little extra $ in the plate, the next Sunday).
Ken Smith ( Phil. Pa. USA )