Vincent - Wheels, Tires, Spokes, Nipples, Fenders  (Discussion letters at end of charts)

"B" and "C" Series Vincent
 
Name Description Rapide Shadow Lightning Comet Meteor remarks
Rim WM 1 x 20", steel , chrome 1 1 1 1 front
Rim WM 2 x 19", steel, chrome 1 1 1 1 rear
Rim WM 1 x 21"alloy - - 1 - - front
Rim WM 2 x 20"alloy - - 1 - - rear
Spoke 10 gauge x  9 3/4" - - 40 - - front
Spoke 8 gauge x  9 1/4" 40 40 40 40 40 frt/rear
Spoke 8 gauge x  ? 40 40 40 40 rear
Nipple 10 gauge - - 40 - - front
Nipple 8 gauge 80 80 40 80 80 both
Tire Avon  3.00 x 21 front
Tire Avon  3.50 x 20 rear
Tire Dunlop  3.00x20 3.00x20 3.00x20 3.00x20 front
Tire Dunlop 3.50x19 3.50x19 3.50x19 3.50x19 rear

 
Vincent
Series		 Vincent
Model		 Tire Size
Front		 Tire Size
Rear		 Inflation
Pressure
Front-psi		 Inflation
Pressure
Rear-psi		 Remarks
A" 1935-39 Meteor 3.00x20 3.25x19 20 21
Comet 3.00x20 3.25x19 20 21
Comet Special 3.00x20 3.25x19 20 21
T.T.Replica 3.00x20 3.25x19 20 22 Race tyres
Rapide 3.00x20 3.50x19 22 21
"B" 1946-49 Meteor 3.00x20 3.50x19 20 20
Rapide 3.00x20 3.50x19 22 21
Black Shadow 3.00x20 3.50x19 22 21
"C" 1949 - on Comet Standard 3.00x20 3.50x19 24 20
Comet Touring Model 3.50x19 4.00x18 17 17
Rapide, Standard 3.00x20 3.50x19 26 21
Rapide, Touring Model 3.50x19 4.00x18 18 17
Black Shadow 3.00x20 3.50x19 26 21
Grey Flash 3.00x21 3.50x20 20 18 race tyres
Black Lightning 3.00x21 3.50x20 21 22 race tyres
Sidecar Wheel 3.25x19 3.50x19 16
The above table contains approximate indications for average conditions. Average increase for 2 up riding is 7 psi for Standard machines and 3 psi for Touring models (rear tire only).  Please refer to your Vincent motorcycle owners manual or to the tyre manufacturer for definitive recommendations.
Wheel Beaings:
Vincent Pt # H22  =  W5413  =  09074/09196  (Timken)
Vincent Pt # H22/1  =  W6413  =  09067/09195  (Timken)
 
Either of the above will fit the swinging arm and the wheels, Vincents used both.  H22/1 is narrower and will likely need a one-eighths alloy spacer over the hollow tube.  A high quality variant is also available from SKF (can't remember the number, sorry) but don't buy Chinese, Russian or other dubious copies under any circumstances.... unless you want to change them regularly.    Peter Barker  7/19/07
As I have been building a rear wheel today with new Shadow drums and 8/10 gauge spokes, I decided to check your point about drum to spoke clearance.  Sure enough, the back of the drum contacts the right-angled bend in the spokes before it is up tight against the flange.  Only by about 8-10 thou, but quite enough to put both spokes and drums under severe stresses with the nylocs done up tight.  A shim is indeed required here and I plan to get a few stainless ones laser-cut (with 10 holes to meet the Shadow requirement).  When I fitted an original (Rapide) drum, I could put an 8 thou feeler gauge between back of drum and the spokes.  I therefore surmise that the "new" drums (bought some years ago and left on the shelf) have too much material on the back face - or the inner mating flange has had too much material machined off the back of it.  Tomorrow, I'll check for run-out of the mounted drums with a dti.  In the meantime, my recommendation would be for you Not to file the spokes.   Another related problem is the tiny differences in the 5/10 mounting holes.  I nearly always find I need to put an 8mm reamer through the drum/flange/hub and/or make bolts with the shank a few thou down to get everything to fit.  Peter Barker  5/27/07
I just bought a set of rims and spokes from Central Wheel. Caution ! When I received the spokes the bend going into the spoke flange was not tight enough (the spoke ends stuck out 1/8 ") I sent them back, and got a set from Buchannon Wheel. They made up a set with a tighter bend that fits great I had a lot of issues with this new set of Shadow drums, new spoke flanges, new hubs, and new spokes. I had to machine the hubs, spoke flange, brake drum to get 1 to 2 thou run out. After lacing the wheels up,I am still having an issue with the spokes hitting the brake drum and causing some extra run out/wobble. I am going to have to loosen the drum and file the back sides of some of the spokes. I wish I had know of this; I would have made up a thin shim/spacer. I think that a thinner spoke may have solved the problem also. I will now fit everything I put together. Note: I did not have as much problem with the rear wheel. Cary Lindsey  5/27/07
Yes, 4-crossing lacing has always been the std and that's what I have used for my std concours Shadow.  However, the Comet when restored, will get 3-cross-laced because I find that 4-cross lacing invariably causes a slight clash of spokes over the spoke flange.  One spoke touches the press-formed head of the adjacent one - especially with butted spokes.  Thus causing a slight bend and undue stress in every spoke.  It seems that this press-formed head on modern spokes is larger and deeper than the original spokes used to be.  And as an aside, I also find that I have to file-out all the (original) spoke-flange slots about 20 thou before sending them for plating.  Otherwise modern spokes just don't fit at all.   Peter Barker  5/27/07
I buy all my rims and spokes, also tyres, from Central Wheel Components in Birmingham (www.central-wheel.co.uk) and cannot fault them on either range, price, quality or delivery.I use stainless spokes with nickel plated brass nipples to avoid any tendency for the thjreads to seize. For the Vincent be sure to order spokes for 4 cross lacing if you want to stay original. The spokes are always accurate on length which makes wheel building a pleasure.  Roy Cross 5/27/07
Tyres: Classic racers are almost all running 110/80 x 18 rear, and 90/90 x 18 front - unless, note, you want it to turn in even quicker in which case the (low-profile if run on a wide rim) Dunlop KR825 275/375 front triangular is used.  By tyre convention, there are 25 mm to the inch, so 4.10 is 110 and the second number is the aspect ratio. 110/80 means 4.10 wide and 80% of that high.  Tom Gaynor  2/22/06
For alloy sprockets I would sudgest B&C Express, who will make sprockets to suit in any size. All you need to tell them is the centre hole dimentionss, how many bolt holes there PCD, and if the sprocket is dished. This will cost you approx 40-60 pounds and is in 7075 T6 aircraft spec ally (the best). Neil Diggens  3/23/05
WheelCalc - A Spoke Length Calculator For Wheel Builders: http://www.xsystems.co.uk/machinehead/spoke_length_calculator.html

The original wider wheel bearings (H22) which are best.  The numbers for the narrower ones (H22/1) (for which you need a 100 thou alloy spacer) are #09195 and #09067.  If your wheels have the metric bearings (H22/2), you need the SKF 30204 which is widely available at low cost.  Peter Barker 1/2/03

Wheel and Swing Arm Bearings:  There are SKF bearings available from Dixie, etc. Come in two part #s as you noted. Outer # is 09196, and inner assembly is # 09074.  Some wheels take a slightly different width besides the rarer small diameter type,  requiring use of a spacer behind the outer. Thank Bill Jean for this info. Sid  12/9/02
Wheel alignment: One little turn of the rear chain adjuster equals almost a quarter of an inch out of alignment.  Put bike on rear stand, both wheels pointing straight ahead, lie on your nose about 8-l0 feet in front of it and you can SEE, positively if the
wheels are tracking. Turn one adjuster more than the other so you can see how much one turn changes the alignment.  It is best to back them both off, precisely, and start fresh.  That is your starting point. Carl Hungness  2/26/02
Wheel building: First point, after seeing the parts, I discovered I had wheels built by two different spoking systems, one short and long. Seems the "real" Vincent system was the longer spoked method. Next problem is that the new spoke heads are just a fraction bigger than the old, but that fraction is too much. Where on the old wheel, spokes just cleared the head of the adjoining
spoke, with the new spokes the neighbours actually touch. And the spoke is deflected, ie bent.

The answer with the Comet wheels is to mill each and every spoke hole on the H2/1 flange, just a touch, with a 45° mill on alternate sides. The head then goes in just a fraction deeper, looks better, and doesn't (quite) touch the neighbouring spoke. The wheelbuilder suggests getting the centre portion of the stainless rim lightly sandblasted, to give the black epoxy paint a
better grip. He also suggests I re-check the spoke head to spoke shank angle, and reset if necessary.

The wheelbuilder and I understand each other better now, and each has more respect for the other's work. When I get the paint finished, I'll assemble loosely the spokes, drums in place and H19/1s tightened up, bearings in place, and he'll true. I can understand he didn't want to waste time with the sort of problems I found.  Bruce McNair  1/3/02


I asked who imported these nice looking wheelrims (made by Excel Takasago) into the UK, and discovered that they're imported by Talon Engineering and distributed by Jim Morgan of Disco Volante in Wales (jim@discovolantemoto.com).

His promotional blurb says (quote):  Excel Tagasago Classic Flanged Rims are expensive (most things are in Japan!) but we know that this type of rim has never been made to this standard, since Borrani stopped. They are much superior to the old Akront, and are a wheel builders delight!  Phil  Blakeney  05/06/01

Wheel Bearings: You can check out on the bike by grabbing hold of the tyre, moving the wheel sideways, should have about fifteen thou. of movement. = the five thou. at the bearings. Too little or too much movement . Time to check out the shimming / or the bearings. Trevor  03/24/01
Wheel Bearings: E.M.G.S. and P.R. recommend 5 thou endfloat as a "nice running fit". Make sure to assemble and fully tighten the hollow axle absolutely clean and dry to check this with a feeler guage placed between the roller/s and race of one bearing with the other having no play (i.e you end up with a running 0.0025" float at each bearing). It takes several tedious reassemblies and playing with a variety of shim sizes to get it right and at the same time equalize the protrution of the spindle ends but good handling and maybe your life sometime depends on it. Only then should you pack the bearings with grease and finally assemble. Obvious to "old hands" so forgive me for reiterating but  when I first rode my Shadow after purchase it almost killed me at speeds over 50 mph. Then I found 0.05" play on the back axle and a whopping 0.08" on the front! Then I bought the books.....and new bearings.  Tim Holcroft  03/24/01
The easy way to look at shimming the wheel bearings is to put just enough shims under the inner races to get a nice running fit.  The shims should be divided between each end in such a manner that equal lengths of spindle should protrude from each of the inner races.  Then any extra shims you use are to get the neccessary clearance between brake plates and drums.  The nuts  should be flush with the ends of the spindles when they are both tightened up.  If you can achieve this without the alloy washers then you do not need them.  Derek Peters. 03/24/01
Not on the Web but the main US Avon tyre distributor is:

Hoppe & Associates Inc.
407 Howell Way Edmonds Wa. 98020
Phone 425 771 2115  800 624 7470 fax 425 771 4246
Talk to Mark Phenning

Tyre Pressure: A popular modern opinion is that because even our old pattern tyres are now made with modern sticky rubber the tyre pressures should be much higher than those recommended by the manufacturers; even well up into the thirties p.s.i.  I can only really give my experiences with the Series "D" set up, as I haven't owned or wished to own anything other than a "D" since I first tried one back in the early sixties.  I tend to agree with you about pressures.  I think most Vincent owners are not aware of how low the tyre pressure recommendations were originally.  In the case of a twin using 3.50 x 19 front and 400 x 18 rear the highest  recommended pressures were 18 p.s.i and 17 p.s.i. respectively with a 3 p.s.i. increase in the rear tyre only when carrying a pillion passenger.  I was quite frankly amazed when members talked about using 30 p.s.i plus in their tyres.  Whatever has happened to tyre manufacture, we have to realise that our suspension systems are at least 45 years old and were designed to run with low pressure tyres. I personally find that about 18 p.s.i. front and 20 p.s.i. rear are ideal for my over 200 lbs weight.  If I go much over these figures I find it is difficult to keep the wheels on the road over a rough surface and the
comfort drops considerably.  It was suggested by certain sources that providing the tyres did not overheat due to flexing of the tyre walls and the roadholding was satisfactory  there was little to worry about and I subscribe to this thinking.  I have felt my tyres after over 100 miles continuous fast riding and the temperature has never been excessive and I have always found the handling over all surfaces to be satisfactory. Derek Peters  12/29/00
Rim and Tyre sizes: To appreciate the excellent steering characteristics of any Vincent then it must be ridden with 300 x 20 front and 3.50 x 19 rear tyres. Rims should be WM 1 x 20 front and WM 2 x19 rear. I was fortunate to do a good few miles on a Ron Kemp restored Shadow with this standard wheel and tyre setup and was amazed with the pin point accuracy of the
the steering and the way the bike seemed to float over any irregularities in the road surface. The only drawback , not enough
rubber on the road to go nailing deep into corners whilst hard on the brakes and the footrest on the tarmac. For this kind of riding then my choice is :
    100/90 H 19 Avon AM20 Front  on a WM3 Akront flangless alloy rim
    110/90 H 18 Avon AM 21 Rear on a 2.50 (WM4?) Akront flangeless alloy rim

This gives me more rubber on the road than I need, plenty of grip from the Avons especially when they get hot and really sticky, although they are not the "track compound" which I believe are available from Avons. Wear rates for this tyre are good, 10,000 miles rear, 20,000 miles front. I believe that it is false economy to buy a tyre and only use the middle bit.
Wm. Clive Richards 12/14/00


Birmabright, right lets now clear up the mysteries........ To give it its proper spec.  Birmabright BB2, Produced by Birmetals Ltd.,  Birmabright works,  Clapgate Lane, Quinton, Birmingham. Now defunct . This material could have also been called  Hiduminium 22 ,  Alcan  GB M57S , BA 21, Alcoa 510 , AWCO 21 .  These being the same thing, but produced by other
companies of that era.  But we only know it as Birmabright, because thats where the factory or the mudguard manufacturer purchased it from. Today we know this material as NS4, or in American  terms 5251.  ISO designation A1 MG2.  I have had a chemical analysis carried out on a piece of original material . So now you can go manufacturing , and use todays equivalent of
the original. I originally thought the material to be an alclad, I have now proven myself to have been wrong.
Trevor Southwell  8/08/00
I have used Avon AM20 & AM21tyres front  and rear on my Vincent for some time now and have been well pleased with them. High levels of grip and good wear rates. I get them from M & P Accessories who always have them in stock. One
point to note, the current Avon handbook recomends using wider wheel rims for their range of tyres, e.g.a 100 x 90 H19 requires a WM3 rim. this tyre fitted to a WM2 rim looks very "pinched" on this narrow rim. The sidewalls slope steeply inwards whereas on a WM 3 rim the tyre looks completely at home. Similarly ,at the rear I run a 110 x 90 H18 on a 2.85 (WM 4?) rim. M & PAccessories Gorseinon South Wales UK are your best bet.   Clive  7/18/00

Yesterday whilst travelling back from Mara Lake in central BC in the company of two other Vincents one of them had a rear wheel problem.  The rear drums were drilled for cooling or ????  and whoever assembled the drums to the hubs (Rapide) used 3/8" socket head capscrews with thread all the way to the head.  Needless to say, the drum must have been fretting and
two bolts sheared and the drum shatered and forward momentum was lost.  20 Min later we were on the road again.  Sprocket moved to the other drum, wheel turned around, damaged drum removed leaving the shoes exposed.  Is there another motorcycle that you could do that with??

Morals to the incident (well some people have no morals)
- know what you are driving
- use the proper bolts in the proper place!!

Robert (Woolly Mammoth) Watson


Letter on Birmabright fender repair:

We have now successfully welded the Birmabright with not only 4043 rod, but 5356 wire as well..TIG (Heliarc) welded. My only cracks are at the mounting stays and I too shall install some rubber grommets when they go back on. I made patches to
repair the cracks out of 606l T6 material and so far, it seems to have worked perfectly.

Rather than mess about with  the cracks, I punched a one inch hole in the mudguard which totally eliminated the crack..then I "domed" the donor piece of material to match the contour of the mudguard and welded in place..a tricky operation as the Birmabright is only .035 thick..I used .061 aluminum as a filler and let it stand slightly proud of the parent material, so when filing the weld, you can actually allow the file to touch the new patch without worrying about filing a hole in your new patch. I used a sandbag and gentle hammer blows to contour the patch.
 

    I am in the midst of polishing the Birmabright...but to my eye it looks "Over-Restored" when it is highly polished, so I have the mudguards Clear Powder Coated which not only insures I never have to polish them again, but the thin coating tones down the sheen to just the right gloss (for my eye anyhow).

    Beware if you do Powder Coat anything..it is a definite problem to remove the material. High quality aircraft paint remover works and in many cases so does MEK (methyl-ethyl-keotone). If you do a metal part such as a frame member, be ready to sandblast the Powder Coat off..     Carl Hungness


Thanks to those who posted interesting info on Birmabright, and how it's to be distinguished from stainless steel.  I have a slightly trickier variant on the same question.  My bike arrived with alloy fenders of some sort; clearly not stainless. They could (conceivably) be original Birmabright fenders, or (more likely) replacements made of some other aluminum alloy.  How does the discerning Vincent owner tell genuine Birmabright from brand X aluminum alloy?  If my old fenders are original they may be worth salvaging, otherwise not.    Dave Hartner  4/18/00

 The only clue I can offer at this point of my limited knowledge of Birmabright, is that it measures .035 thick. I successfully plugged a one inch hole I punched in it to eliminate some cracks. I made the plug from 606l T6, domed it on a sandbag and TIG (heliarc) it in place with 4043 rod and also used the 5356 wire.       Carl Hungness  4/18/00

Well it took since last SEPT to trace the man who has 3:00 x 20 inch tubes made on a custom basis in Italy. These are good quality, I have been using them for some years in all my Vincents.

Tony Etheridge,
118 Oaklands Avenue,
Oxhey Hall,
Watford,
Hertfordshire WD1 4LW
Great Britain

44 (0) 1923 231699  (24hr answerphone when unattended). I bought one today for £9. Call him to ask postage rates.
Arthur Farrow   4/20/00


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